In a recent, highly-publicized court decision, music industry lobbying group the RIAA won an eye-popping $1.92 million verdict against Jammie Thomas-Rasset (left) of Minnesota. That works out to $80,000 per song for each of the 24 tunes that the 32-year-old mother of four was accused of sharing.
How might such a case work out for someone accused of file-sharing video games?
Not well, according to gamer/attorney Mark Methenitis. In his Law of the Game column on Joystiq
If we assume [the Thomas-Rasset verdict] is allowed to stand, the possible implication is that the individual works that comprise the greater work that is a video game could be each pursued individually. So, for example, if you pirate a copy of Guitar Hero 4, you're not only liable for the piracy of the game, but also the piracy of the 86 included music tracks. So, keeping the value at $80,000 per work, your total bill would be $6.96 million. That's only 116,000 times the $60 retail value of the game...
It seems likely that a better balance will need to be struck... Is the solution to make small time, individual piracy the speeding ticket of the 21st century, punished with a stinging slap on the wrist when caught? Perhaps...
As for Jammie Thomas-Rasset, her comment on the verdict was, "Good luck getting it from me." Meanwhile, the RIAA has filed some 30,000 similar lawsuits around the United States.
Comments
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
What you seem to be forgetting is that martyrs still have to take their punishment. And this has nothing to do with Obedience or Patriotism, it has to do with this dumb bitch breaking the law and having to pay the punishment.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
When a law says you CAN do something (such as your "jump off a cliff" argument), you don't have to do it. If a law says you CAN'T do something (such as download and share someone else's IP) you will be punished for doing so.
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I will concede and agree with the point that she deserves something worse than the proverbial slap on the wrist. But, acting as if the RIAA are a bunch of innocent people who have been wronged is just too much for me, given their track record.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
So let's review.
First off, this jackass illegally downloaded and shared 24 songs. Then, she gets caught. The RIAA tells her that, rather than a lengthy and expensive court battle that she will lose, she can pay 2000 dollars and it'll all go away. She declines, and forces both into a court battle. She wastes government time and money trying to defend her breaking of the law (kind of like this last OJ Simpson trial) and loses (with a jury, if I recall). They fine her 220,000 or somewhere around that, but tell her that they'll still take 2000 dollars instead. Still acting like a dumb bitch, she decides to waste MORE money and goes to the appeal, where they decide she owes the RIAA 1.92 MILLION dollars for willingly breaking the law. At the end, the RIAA, those evil people, offer to let her off the hook for 2000 to 5000 dollars. Her response is 'good luck getting the money from me'. Sounds like she'd rather bankrupt herself than pay the fine for her unlawful activities.
Of course, then we have the idiots on the internet (hey, like you Ashton) who say that 2000 dollars for breaking the law 24 times is far too much, and that we should think of how we're punishing her children (or rather, she's punishing her children through her own actions). Nevermind that she seems more set on bankruptcy than paying the money she owes. So do I feel bad for her, or her children? No. She made a string of bad decisions, and the RIAA (those evil, evil, dastardly people, what with their constant offer of a low, low settlement) gave her plenty of chances. She absolutely deserves worse than a slap, and she's going to bankrupt herself, and she deserves that too.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
You think $2000 for 24 songs isn't unreasonable? At $1 per song that's over 80 times the actual value of what she stole. How is that reasonable for such petty theft.
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Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
And if she had just downloaded the songs, we wouldn't be here. There isn't a lot of interest in punishing people who simply downloaded songs right now; they're trying to get people who are downloading and SHARING. For illegally downloading and SHARING, 80 dollars seems more than fair.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
As I understand the case it is not her nicking the songs that is the real issue her, it is her sharing them. I'd say that 80 people downloading the songs shared is a reasonable guess.
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A house is not a home unless it contains food and fire for the mind as well as the body. Benjamin Franklin
A house is not a home unless it contains food and fire for the mind as well as the body. Benjamin Franklin
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
So if she declares bankruptcy and the RIAA ends up never seeing a cent, will you still think her being in bankruptcy to be a good thing?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10269251-93.html
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/18254.cfm
-Gray17
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Yes. She still was punished, and the RIAA doesn't really need the money to defray their court costs. They were just giving her an option for punishment that was easy to stomach. If she doesn't want to take it, she's a moron, and they've done their good deed (or tried to).
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
You honestly think that blackmailing people into paying huge settlements (most people don't have $2-5K just lying around), using the threat of even larger fines enabled by draconian laws that the RIAA themselves put on the books, is a "good deed"? Get your head out of your ass.
What if a company had tolls set up on all crosswalks, and got laws passed so the fine for jaywalking was to have both legs, both arms, and a few ribs broken? In their magnanimity, they allow you to get off with "only" getting your leg broken, but if you try to resist, you get the works. Does that sound like a sensible system? Sure, jaywalking is against the law and you shouldn't have done it, but the punishment still needs to be appropriate to the crime. In this case it is clearly not. Just because something is legal, that doesn't mean it's right. The laws here were not put in place by the normal process, for some kind of societal benefit. They were bought and paid for by the very organization that is now abusing them to pick on individuals who can't fight back.
Also, you made a point arguing with someone else earlier that all crimes should be punished equally. I'm sorry our justice system doesn't live up to your standards, because judges have quite a bit of leeway to take mitigating factors into account and apply leniency (or strictness) when sentencing.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Well, to start with, there's no blackmail here. You really ought to learn what it is. I think the fact that they are willing to let her pay only 2000 out of 1.92 million is quite the good deed, seeing as they don't have to let her off so easily.
There's a problem with your comparison here; the problem is that MUSIC IS NOT ESSENTIAL TO LIFE. You may NEED to cross the street (and unless you live off the internet, you probably will) to get, say, food, employment, or, in some cases, welfare. Also, that crosswalk? Public property. A company can't simply set up on public property and demand money for its use without government consent.
The laws may suck, but its still the law. If she doesn't have to follow this law, why should I have to follow other laws? That seems fair, right?
By punished equally, I meant when a punishment is handed down, the punishment is served. I'm sick of this bullshit where Hollywood Hacks get off for doing things that'd put me in jail for a year (Paris).
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I call "Troll Alert" on Austin_Lewis.
You are "de-facto" arguing that slapping someone over the face should
bring the death-penalty... Which is nothing but a Troll-Argument...
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I'm sorry, are you retarded or just illiterate?
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
And if she gets the verdict ruled unconstitutional for being so disproportionate?
-Gray17
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Somehow, I don't see that happening. Call me crazy. Especially if the RIAA mentions that they offered her an out of court settlement that they've repeatedly documented.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I can see it happening. It's not the most likely thing, but it is possible. She's spiteful enough of the RIAA at this point, and the RIAA's offer of settlement only underscores how absurdly high the verdict is.
-Gray17
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I agree it's possible, but whatever they decide, it won't be anywhere near as low as the settlement offer she refused countless times. It probably would end up being what the initial judgement was. Either way, she'll refuse the settlement again and file for bankruptcy.
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Well, I already said that I concede the point that she deserves punishment, but not bankrupcy. Forgive me for being against fucking over people who didn't commit horrible crimes!
But man, you're pretty pathetic, Austin. Not only do you have no human decency, you use consistent ad hominem attacks against me in response to posts that are not only not inflammatory in any way, shape or form, but are not even directed towards you. I like how you still call me an idiot despite knowing only one thing (that I think her punishment is too much). That sure proves your point, and how "smart" you are! Grade A, good sir. You sure are the pinnacle of human existence. I wish we were all law abiding citizens contributing our fair share to society with extremist views like yours.
Either you're just a shill for the RIAA, or you really are sub human trash. Get your head out of your ass already.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Right. Because calling me a sociopath isn't ad hominem, jackass.
But I especially love how you've given up on the debate. Maybe because you've lost? Because you had no real point to start with? Or because you're one of those flakey anti-corporate types? Either way, it doesn't change the fact that you're an idiot.
Why are you an idiot? Because you feel that punishment should be tailored for people based on their situation, namely. Oh, 2000 is too much, what about her children? Yeah, that's great. But, and you would know this were you not an idiot ,the law is not here to be applied differently on any basis. The law is meant to apply the same to rich and poor, white and black, celebrities and nobodies. The fact that she has kids has NOTHING TO DO with how she should be punished. She broke the law, and she took repeated risks, and now she'll probably go bankrupt. And why? Because she's an idiot.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Right. Because calling me a sociopath isn't ad hominem, jackass.
I said punishments like that is sociopathic, but you yourself are quite sociopathic too, for endorsing such an extreme punishment and for insulting anyone with a different opinion.
But I especially love how you've given up on the debate. Maybe because you've lost? Because you had no real point to start with? Or because you're one of those flakey anti-corporate types?
How have I 'lost'? Nobody here agrees with your extremist views. In fact I count mroe people agreeing with me that $1.92 million and driving her into bankrupcy is too much. Oh, I'm sure in your pathetic, delusional world where you are always right, you may have won. But your weak link is, this is Earth.
Either way, it doesn't change the fact that you're an idiot. Why are you an idiot? Because you feel that punishment should be tailored for people based on their situation, namely.
Um... no. I said that $1.92 million was too much for anyone. Which you called me an idiot for. But sure, go ahead and lie if it'll help you sleep at night.
Oh, 2000 is too much, what about her children? Yeah, that's great. But, and you would know this were you not an idiot ,the law is not here to be applied differently on any basis. The law is meant to apply the same to rich and poor, white and black, celebrities and nobodies. The fact that she has kids has NOTHING TO DO with how she should be punished. She broke the law, and she took repeated risks, and now she'll probably go bankrupt. And why? Because she's an idiot.
I already admitted that 2000 is reasonable considering other fines. But oh, no, you must've missed that post. I love how you continually focus on selective things in my posts and refuse to answer the ones that would render your argument moot. For example: No other fines cause $1.92 million in charges if you appeal them. I bolded it, by the way, since you apparently have trouble seeing parts of your computer screen. It's okay, really. It is. Just go see a doctor and get it corrected before you embarrass yourself further, mmkay?
By the way, since we're still on this whole ad hominem thing, you're still sub human trash. No amount of insults hurled my way is gonna change that.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I don't know if you can wrap your brain around this, but they're still willing to take somewhere between 2000 to 5000. She obviously doesn't care to pay that. She's driving HERSELF into bankruptcy, and I don't feel bad for her at all.
You were complaining earlier that 2000 is STILL too much. Or did you forget that already?
Oh, also, No other fines cause $1.92 million in charges if you appeal them? Bullshit. Go find anything on the Bernie Madoff case.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Austin, some people simply can't afford even $2000. I agree with others here - you're acting like a sociopath.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
If people can't afford to pay 2 grand for breaking the law 24 times, they shouldn't be breaking the law.
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Right. It's sociopathic to expect people to pay for their crimes. Here's a few things to consider.
1). How many times did she share the songs? What songs WERE they? All I can find is that she downloaded and then shared songs by Green Day and Sheryl Crow, but with the strange popularity of Green Day, I don't doubt she shared the songs more than a few hundred times a piece.
2). I don't doubt the RIAA would be willing to work out a payment plan. I also don't doubt that she could get a loan, a grant, or borrow money from her family and get that $2000. So, there are now two ways justice will be achieved; she'll either find that 2000 dollars, or she'll go bankrupt and destroy her credit rating.
You know what's sociopathic? BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW. Seriously, go look up the meaning of sociopath. Think about it for a minute.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
See, here's the thing: you're endorsing the huge punishment (1.92 million? Really?!) for a relatively small-potatoes crime. This is the rough equivalent of demanding the death penalty for jaywalking. Frankly, I think you'll find a lot of non-sociopaths who both jaywalk and provide songs to people for free. In fact, if you start digging, you'll probably find that everyone you know has broken the law in a hundred tiny ways that they went unpunished for.
Yes, the word "sociopath" for your particularly extremist response to folks thinking 1.92 million is excessive was -also- excessive. You're just ridiculously, Judge Dredd-style zealous.
Feel better?
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
You obviously don't read my posts, considering I said that I conceded that 2000 was reasonable.
Go find anything on the Bernie Madoff case.
You're seriously comparing these two cases? I'm just gonna stop debating with the sub human trash now. So you can claim your "victory" now, Austin.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
When you break a law, you are subject to fines. You can be fined 500 dollars for throwing trash out of your car on the highway. You can be fined 1000 to 8000 dollars for speeding (1000 is for 20mph+ over the speed limit, 8000 is for speeding in a construction area). You can be fined 125 to 250 dollars for jaywalking. So how is her being fined 2000 dollars for WILLINGLY AND KNOWINGLY BREAKING THE GODDAMN LAW 'ridiculous'? She broke the law 24 times. That evens out to a little less than a 100 dollars per instance.
What is relevant is that she broke the law on purpose, knowing full well she was doing it. It's not like driving down the highway going 10MPH over the limit because you didn't see the sign a ways back. No, she KNEW what she was doing to be illegal. As such, I have no sympathy for her. She's absolutely a dumbass, and she deserves whatever she gets. She could have gone out and spent, at most, 300 dollars, and gotten, legally, all of these songs on CD. Instead, she decides to illegally download and share the files. What a great decision.
Should stupidity be an offense? No, but its no excuse for your actions. And she should have thought, before she illegally shared files 'hmmm. How could this affect my children given my mediocre level of income?' She's a dumbass, and your defense of her is just as idiotic.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
But this is damages. Not a fine!
This is meant to compensate the record industry for tyhe losses they've made. It's not intended to be punitive.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I haven't found anything on her 'knowing' that it was illegal, but it's a moot point. Everything you said is true, but if you appeal those fines you don't get slapped with a million dollar lawsuit, do you?
And considering you believe that she SHOULD go bankrupt due to her stupidity, that just proves my point of how you think your arbitrary definition of stupidity applies to everyone and anyone who fits within that definition should be punished for way more than they should. I declare that anyone who doesn't know that taking too much corticosteroids can cause Cushing's Syndrome is a dumbass. Therefore, anyone who gets a hypertensive crisis thanks to their hypertension being exacerbated by corticosteroids due to overuse has no business going to a hospital and asking for help, since they're so Goddamn fucking stupid. So what about you? When should you be put on the chopping block for someone's arbitrary definition of stupidity?
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
She doesn't need to go bankrupt. She can take the settlement. That's the point you're missing. Like he said, per song it's a smaller fine than most speeding tickets. As such, this is her mess and her responsibility. She should have considered the consequences for her and her children before illegally downloading the songs, illegally sharing them, going to court, being given the first settlement offer, appealing, being given the second settlement offer, and finally having the appeal going against her. At this point, no matter what happens is her responsibility and hers alone. She wasn't thinking about her children, so stop whining that the corporations should be.
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
What she is doing IS suicidal, but serves the cause well.
What cause? Of course, the cause of the pirate parties!
And I must say, I am a game developer, and I hate to see my work stolen by other people, but I am still a supporter of pirate party, why? It is simple, it is because the current patent law only serve to the biggest corporations crush everyone else, not to prevent people from stealing my work... And mind you, stealing my work is claiming that they did the work that I did, stealing the credit, copying a game that I made is not stealing my work (it is copying... and in fact I don't bother with this, the people that want to pay will pay, and that peopel that cna not pay or don't want, won't anyway...)
criadordejogos.wordpress.com
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Dude, stick to game development. The law is not your forte. Patent != Copyright. She's liable for copyright infringement, not patent infringement. Copyright infringement prevents people from copying your game. Patent infringement is a strict liability tort and willfulness (intent) only comes into play when assessing damages.
IAAPL.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Patent law serves whoever owns the patent. If you're willing to exchange your ideas for money, don't be surprised when the company paying you gets all the money for your ideas.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Given the general sketchiness of the RIAA's evidence, I can't say I blame her for trying.
In any case, I think she is indeed planning on filing to bankruptcy to get out of the judgement. Hence the whole "Good luck getting it from me." part.
-Gray17
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I don't know who disgusts me more: The RIAA and their bullshit lawsuit tactics or the droves of kids on the internet who think stealing is their right.
Both sides of this argument suck.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
It's because it got turned from a problem into a 'war'.
If corporations stopped looking at everyone who downloaded their music as the new third reich, and instead as normal, everyday people who have found a way to get something cheap or free and are, like any other animal in the world, exploiting an available resource.
I'll agree it's illegal to download software, anyone who thinks they are 'justified' in doing so is simply deluding themselves, but rather than take the problem on board and try to treat the pirates (who are frequently exactly the same people as their customers) like real people, Corporations started trying to show off about how much trouble you can get into 'if you cross them, it made them look like some kind of mafia.
I think many people, seeing the companies out not for justice, but instead for some kind of percieved vengeance, took this as a challenge, and the whole thing self generated publicity from there.
So the question is, who made pirating such a well known and popular past-time?
The answer is 'The very people who are trying to stop it.'
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Pretty much this.
Exactly how many people would have learned about torrents outside of circles of geeks if major corporations weren't constantly advertising the existance of said torrents? Perhaps the uptake of it would be inevitable, but I can't help but feel it would be less wide spread if the corporations hadn't banged on their drums.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
And the entertainment industries wonder why people hate their guts. This is absolutely absurd.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
What do you expect from an industry that turns drug dealers and murderers into millionaires overnight? Some sort of morality?
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Amen to that.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
So should I start buying blanket licenses for people to listen to my MP3 player in my car?
http://www.deathvanquished.com
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
If PC game designers want to stop game piracy they only need to do what they did in the 80s and early 90s with the Don’t Copy That Floppy campaign. Make every user read the entire manual which is like a small book and then force the user to take an educational long quiz and if that person can’t pass then they can’t play and take the entire quiz all over again with new questions.
And in the 80s and 90s they were not multiple choices, you had to literally have a photographic memory of crap you read in your manual.
PC Game Sales are hurting because of the new DRM and low quality games, when they tried this form of DRM PC Games rarely sold.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Problem though is that people can make cracks to those quizzes or someone will make a .pdf of the game manual. =/
-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
I don't think you understand the point to the old DRM. A Kid is not going to study a manuel each and every time he wants to play a game so even if they bought it, it's pointless to play. They even did this to the orginal Street Fighter.
It annoys you to cease playing the game. The worst form of DRM ever
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Sounds great to me -- no more snobby self-entitled kids playing video games means more companies making mature games with complex plots for patient players, such as myself.
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The Mammon Philosophy
Fangamer
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Don't forget those crazy wheels where you'd have to match up what the game showed you and put in the right answer. My favourite was the one for Monkey Island: "what year was this ugly pirate hanged?"
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The Mammon Philosophy
Fangamer
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Thing is, no-one is going to even think about stopping until corporations stop trying to squeeze money from the public, and instead starting trying to earn it.
There seems to be more and more of an attitude in corporate circles that if they can terrorise (Yes, I used that Buzzword) people into not downloading they will somehow have 'won' some kind of battle, which is, of course, rubbish, the people who download your software are the same people who pay for it in the shops, this concept that 'pirates' and 'consumers' are two wholly seperate groups of people is a fallacy of the highest order.
As was mentioned in the article, the best approach would be something equivalent to a 'speeding ticket', all this heavy-handedness will destroy custom, not enhance it, I'm just amazed that most corporations are so obsesed with the bottom line that they seem to have forgot the most basic business practice skills.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
To hell with the current copyright laws. They provide ZERO benefit to society and most cases very limited benefit the creators of the culture due to business models. Copyright is NOT about multi-generational revenue streams or multi-decade invenstmet returns. The principle point of copyright is for "incentive" to create more for the benefit of society. Greed is evil and society is getting served a big huge pile of shit with the current system.
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"The most difficult pain a man can suffer is to have knowledge of much and power over little" - Herodotus
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
The problem is not greed...
The problem is concentration of power. Too few people have too much of a say in the laws and too much of the wealth.
Re: If a Pirated Song = $80K, What is the Value of a ...
Exactly. There are a crapton of bands out there that don't mind file-sharing, and there are a lot that NEED it to gain exposure. However, as soon as they sign a contract, those shared songs are all of a sudden illegal.
We need to look at the laws, and determine at what point are we really breaking them.
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Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.