Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

August 20, 2009 -

Eidos president Ian Livingstone (left) is the latest game industry exec to complain about used game sales.

The BBC spoke to Livingstone about the issue. Here are the Eidos exec's comments:

The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers...

A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action.

GP: "No slice of the action," of course, is the operative phrase in Livingstone's mini-rant.

Frankly, I have no sympathy for the industry's used game whiners and even less when I remember that digital distribution is inching ever closer. When that happens, the publishers will be in the driver's seat.

Enjoy your used game savings while you can.

Via: gi.biz

Comments

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

I may stop being a gamer if digital distribution happens where the publishers have control and I no longer have the right do as I please with what I spend My money on and I'm given the illusion of owning a game by downloading it to My HDD.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Technically you don;t own the physical medium these days...and with the DMCA you can;t do anything other than put in it a approved licensed player and play it...


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

No, You do own the physical media.

You don't own what's on that media.

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

I own the right to use it for priavte viewing no matter the device or item in question, the DMCA removes my right to rip it and cross convert it myself.

 


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Yes you own the right to use the media, something that DRM limits. iTunes for example limits a download to five hard drives (I am likely to own more than five HDDs in my lifetime), CDs don't limit my usage, didn't Spore try to pull off a similar trick?

DRM unfairly limits your usage of the media.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Well, if publishers want "a slice of that action," they need to give more incentives to buy new games, not make threats.

Reward zones for registering new games, a feature a lot of major publishers are investing in (like Club Nintendo, for example), give the gamer a reason to buy a new game. Since new games at Gamestop & EB are practically used anyway, why bother?

But you can find new games on eBay & Amazon for practically a used price anyway.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Problem with that is the consumer then whines about the incentive. I'm thinking Bioware/EA deal for Dragon Age's relase. If you buy it new, you get free content that costs anyone who buys it used $15 if they want it.

 

The first thing I saw when it was listed online was outrage over being given an "incompete game". I saw it right away as a trick to cut down on used sales.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Sims 3 did the same thing. You got a coupon for another town with purchase.  

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

DLC=incomplete game, at least thats the rule more than the excepstion....

They can try and pad sales buy adding one time stuff when you buy a game new but half of the people that will sell it off wont use the "new game only" content. So its haphazard at best.....


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

This doesn't seem like padding sales though. It seems more like incentive to buy new instead of rent or wait and buy used.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Padding,driveing, funnleing tis all teh same to make the enw game look better than the used but theres no real way to do it unless you have a key and account based system.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Ya know, digital downloads will be horrible for some people. Personally I only buy games on steam/d2d/etc when I know for a fact that it will literally rock my socks off. 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

I never buy digital downloads anymore.  If it's not in a box I'll end up losing it somehow.  I end up losing the game through the usual data corruption or just by uninstalling it.  Then when I want to try it again I've gone and lost the passcode.  Even with  those games I've ordered a backup disc for, I end up losing the disc because it doesn't come in a slipcase or a box and it's so darned small compared to all my other games.  Plus, I enjoy getting a paper manual with my game.  Screw that PDF bullshit!

With that and the issue of DRM (by which I mean the scam whereby I can't resell a game I bought), I prefer a solid game with a box that has the old style requirement of keeping the disc in the drive.  If it has anything more annoying than that, or if it doesn't come in a box, I ain't buying.  Not anymore.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

That can be said for any game DD or either  wise :P


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Except: Not whining. Merely identifying a phenomeon that exists and explaining why iot needs to be taken into account when formulating a business plan.

>"The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers..."

Simply saying that there's an issue that exists. "Here is a competing product that is, for whatever reason, having a detrimental effect on our market."

>A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action."

This identifies how the competing market competes (bigger margin), and the effect it has on the games industry's market (no incentive to reorder).

Simple economics, no different to if Livingstone made the same comments about DVD sales.

I notice no mention of the more interesting and important comment about an uncompetitive UK retail market- The agenda's getting tedious, Dennis.

/b

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

>"The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers..."

Whining. How serious can a problem be if all physical goods producers have to deal with the exact same issue?

>A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action."

Whining. He is complaining that the games industry gets no part of the profits from used games sales. Guess what. No other industry gets a slice of the profits from the sales of their used products. What makes the games industry entitled?

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

>>"The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers..."

>Whining. How serious can a problem be if all physical goods producers have to deal with the exact same issue?

Not whining. It's a serious problem for everybody else, because it's a market they're not in. Simple identification of a phenomenon that exists.

>>A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action."

>Whining. He is complaining that the games industry gets no part of the profits from used games sales. Guess what. No other industry gets a slice of the profits from the sales of their used products. What makes the games industry entitled?

Not whining. He's pointing out that the games industry gets no part of the profits of products they're not selling. The same way they get no profits from the sales of DVDs, Books, Cars, Fruit or anything else you might buy that isn't a game. All that is is the explanation of why something is an issue- he isn't saying "retail should give us a royalty on used", he's saying "we don't get a royalty on used", in case somebody believed that they did. No mention of any kind of entitlement.

/b

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

That is whining of the worst type.  He's whining he doesn't get money for something that he sold to somebody else that is being resold.  If he doesn't want that to happen, then he needs to make it where they don't want to sale said product.

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

I can't see the whining. Everyone knows that games companies don't make any money for the second-hand market, it's a fact. Everyone dies, that's a fact, but am I whining about by simply pointing it out? No. Just because a representative at a games company states this it become whining? That ridiculous.

The used game market is a big issue in the industry now and everyone in the industry is being asked about it. So as soon as they answer a question about they instantly get called whiners, aren't we whining about their comments believing them to be whiners?

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Everyone knows that games companies don't make any money for the second-hand market, it's a fact.

Let's see what other industries have to deal with used sales:
Furniture
Vehicles (boats/bikes/cars/planes/etc)
Movies
Books (and manuals/comics/mangas/etc)
Music
Consoles
Peripherals (controllers/monitors/keyboards/etc)
Instruments
Appliances
Home Electronics
Tools

This list goes on and on... and these industries have found ways to cope with not getting a DIME on used sales... so why should actual game designers be any different?

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

First, I want to say YES, this coverage is VERY agenda driven.  So much so that it resembles a Jack Thompson tirade or a "death panel" editorial.  You can cover an issue without everytime you covering it, showing just how closeminded you are towards the other side.  Time after time, Dennis has shown he's physically incapable of discussing this issue.  But onto the list!

Let's see what other industries have to deal with used sales:
Furniture -Have you PRICED furniture, sir?  I ask because it's apparent to me that you haven't.  What was Furniture's solution to the used market?  Making it pretty f'ing expensive.  $1500 for a new loveseat compared to $50 from Salvation Army isn't competing on the same market no matter how much people like to draw parallels.

Vehicles (boats/bikes/cars/planes/etc)- 85% of new car purchases come with a vehicle trade-in.  These vehicles trade-ins are often given below Blue Book value and often sold a couple thousand over Blue Book value.  This is actually a vast majority of the vehicle industry so much to the point that the dealerships and manufacturers depend on it to move vehicles.  Take, as an example, the Cash for Clunkers deal.  Same trade in program that's been on TV for the past 15 years in my area, however now it's Government funded to drive up new car sales.  The USED vehicle market has been designed specifically to trick consumers into thinking they are getting a deal.

Movies- Used movie market is directly tied into rental chains.  There are no used movie stores.  It's all bins [riced at what new movies would cost.  And if you knew ANYTHING about movies in general, you'd punch yourself in the face for trying to draw parallels.  The home market is actually one of the least profitable stops for a movie to make, thus used sales in their least important avenue, means NOTHING to them.

Books (and manuals/comics/mangas/etc)- You're kidding with this, right?  Publishers drop so many books the plan is to use 20% to make up for the money loss on the 80%.  They all hope to have the next runaway hit, but after a certain amount of time, they pull hardback editions can go directly after paperback.  When a paperback run is done, they destroy left over copies to control the number of copies out there.  Books then enter availability cycles.  Comics make a vast majority of their money by overpricing the initial release on the sales pitch that "Used" copy will GAIN value.  Their business plan, essentially, is as a giant nerdy investment program.  So once again, NOTHING like the games industry.

Music- Used music stores have all but died.  Because the format in which we buy our music is changing, obviously used is no longer part of the equation.  I cannot transfer ownership of my iTunes library to you for a discount.

Consoles- You're killing me, smalls.  Consoles are RARELY part of the profit plan.  It's all software.  Has been all about the software ever since the US government busted up Nintendo for price fixing during the NES era.  Someone buying a USED console is someone going to buy games.  Someone buying a USED game, isn't going to buy a new game to enhance that USED game experience.  Of course there is DLC.... you mean THAT'S what that's for?!?  Uh duh.

Peripherals (controllers/monitors/keyboards/etc)-
You BUY used controllers and keyboards when the new option IS an option?  For most people, the option isn't even there.  Take a look at a keyboard YOU'VE used for two years.  Now apply that to someone elses hair, skin, finger ick, etc... and you'll PAY for that?  Peripherals aren't a market, man.  And besides, to counter yours.. you don't see Walmart, Best Buy, etc selling USED computer monitors right next to their new ones, do you?  They haven't built their empire off being a flea market, Gamestop on the other hand...

Instruments- Once again, have you PRICED that which you are talking about?  A quality acoustic quitar STARTS at $600.  Some guitars range all the way up to $10,000 (that I've seen).  They are NOT comparable markets because the profit margin on the initial purchase is soooooooo high.  So your solution for the games industry is race the price of games so high that they could make mountains of cash off the first purchase.

I could go on but I'll put it this way instead.  The video game industry, in it's current state, has six months to profit off a game.  That's it, six months.  If they DON'T reach a sales quota (read: Greatest Hits eligibility), they cannot license more copies to be made.  Likewise, retail partners will not carry the more copies they would've made if they could.  Direct sales are not viable since players could NOT see a 2 year old game for $40 without screaming "ripoff" at the top of their lungs.

What these companies have is six months, total, to make back the investment.  After six months, you'll find most companies don't give a damn about used game sales.  But before that time, they are competing directly with someone who's smiling at the publisher, while trying to convince their customers to buy used with blatant falsehoods (One Game Crazy employee told me a used copy of Rock Band 2 is better than a new copy in every way).  Of course the problem is also tied in with publishers themselves.  The digital distrobution revolution that Dennis decides to go all emo and luddite about as a horrifying vision of the future negates certain facts.

The first and most obvious one being the fact that, when most of what a publisher DOES is rendered no longer viable, why would a eveloper NEED a publisher?  Why not self publish, pay royalties to the console makers themselves, and roll in the profits?  Developers get so screwed by publishers, WHY NOT?  And when devs get to keep more of their money, they'll drop the prices accordingly.  This is that counter point nobody talks about when this comes around.  Wonder why Publishers find this such a huge threat?  Because in the near future, Activision, EA, Ubisoft won't have the power they once had.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers...
 

 

He's saying that a market based off the reselling of games to help afford newer ones and make old ones is a problem because the publishers don't make any money off of it.  Not that they didn't make money when the game first sold, but I guess that's beside the point.  To say that there is no benefit and call it a serious problem is whining, since it is nothing of the sort. 

 


A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action.

 

Note that they have to pay for the game and then there's no gurrantee that it'll sell after they repurchase it, nor is there any proof that once it is purchased the second time, that that person will come back in and trade it in for money.  They're taking a risk to gain capatial, and this guy is blowing it out of proportion to make it look like it's hurting them.

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Note that they have to pay for the game and then there's no gurrantee that it'll sell after they repurchase it

The price at which they buy the games is minimal and the price that they sell the games for isn't much less than that of the new versions, so the potential for profits is much higher. A lot of people buy a new game and then trade it in after a week or two, they've probably wasted about 50% of the original game price, renting would've been cheaper. People are better renting than going down the trading-in route.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Wait. Is that all we've been arguing about? The definition of "Whining"?

Is it whining or isn't it? And if so, is that okay or not? Why or why not?

Let's get back to the root of the issue, people: What to do about used games?

Personally, I do think publishers should get at least a percentage of the profit off used game sales; that aughta shut them up. Because we CANNOT allow them to stop used game sales. Try to come to some common ground.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

NO!  That is wrong on so many levels, and will start us down a slippery slope that will crush the consumer.

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Yes whining. Publishers only look at their first week of sales and ignore the rest. The reason why they're whining about it now is because most publishers haven't put out a game that a large number of people want to keep beyond a few days. If they want to avoid this issue of newly released games going on the used shelf within a week, they need to make more enduring games.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Zippy getting a first post?....scary......



Anyway its simple the publishers will have to wheel and deal with the retailers, how about lowering new game prices by 20% and get 20% off each used title sale?


Currently I see a lot of whining and wishing but no real thinking on how to do it where everyone wins!


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Violates Doctrine of First Sale. No.

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

How?

Say activision made the deal with EB/GS and they lowered new games prices and got a cut from all of activacation used game price without prices going up.

 

Everyone wins from this situation.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

The increase in profit from 20% cut on new isn't going to cover what they'd get on used. Why bother?

If you try to enforce it, it's a violation of the Doctrine. I would say GS has enough of the used market that the FTC would be looking into collusion as well.

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

...... this is not about enforcing anything tis a mutual deal were new game prices are cut to raise sales and publisher specific used game titles they get a cut of.

Say you sale 100K of new titles in a 3-6 month period you take a 20% loss on it but you are losing new game sales anyway due to high prices and used game sales, you then have 200K of older games sold in the same time frame. Its called deversefing, you are bringing in a profit no matter which is sold.

 


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Even if you increase the margin on new games, the margin on used games is huge, at the prices GS pays. What do they gain from this - absolutely nothing.

 

 
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