Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As Applied to Games

November 20, 2009 -

Proving that there really is a study for everything, an interesting new analysis applies International Humanitarian Law (IHL) to a variety of war-themed videogames to see how they stack up.

Playing by the Rules was undertaken by a pair of Swiss organizations, Pro Juventute, a children’s rights group, and Track Impunity Always (TRIAL), an association with a focus on international criminal justice.

The aim of the study was to “raise public awareness among developers and publishers of the games, as well as among authorities, educators and the media about virtually committed crimes in computer and videogames.”

Titles were played by gamers under that watchful eye of representatives from both organizations, along with three lawyers that specialized in IHL. Games tested included Army of Two, Battlefield Bad Company, Call of Duty 4 & 5, Far Cry 2, Metal Gear Solid 4 (referred to as Metal Gear Soldier in the report) and Tom Clancy’s Rainbow 6 Vegas.

For each title the study offers general information as a lead-in, then offers up context of the conflict in question and lists violations encountered along with legal analysis.

From FarCry 2’s Violations Encountered and Legal Analysis section:

The scenes portray extensive shooting in civilian areas and the shooting of civilian objects, including shooting at a church. All these acts go unpunished in the game. Even if we assume the attacks are not directed against these objects, the excessive destruction of civilian objects amounts to a violation of the principle of proportionality.

 

IHL allows for some collateral damage to civilians and civilian objects in carrying out hostilities, however, any expected damage must be proportional to the direct and concrete military advantage anticipated.

Overall the study stated, “The result is as deflating as reality. The organisation calls upon game producers to consequently and creatively incorporate rules of international humanitarian law and human rights into their games.”

Among the recommendations offered were:

It would be very useful if developers would incorporate more specific rules on how to conduct an operation in their games, in terms of the weapons allowed, the behaviour allowed, the military targets sought, the degree of collateral damage permitted, etc. The message of the scenes should never be that everything is allowed, or that it is up to the player to decide what is right and what is wrong. In real life, this is not the way it works.


The full study can be viewed here (PDF).


Thanks Bart! (Soldat_Louis)


Comments

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

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Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I haven't played a lot of the games on the list, but I notice they got many details about World in Conflict horribly wrong. For one thing, it's a real-time strategy game, not a first-person shooter (did they even play it?) It mentions the mission where you can destroy a church, and you get criticized if you do. But it says, "The player attacks a church". No, the Soviet soldiers you're fighting are destroying the church, and one of your objectives is to stop them from wrecking it. You don't fail the mission if the church is destroyed, but it's definitely worth telling your artillery to avoid the area.

 

It is true, though, that several missions completely fail to distinguish between civilian and military targets. The most egregious was, "There might be Russians in that village. Shell the crap out of it before we move in". After you capture the rubble, the Russians proceed to bomb whatever buildings are left standing. The game also features saturation bombing in civilians areas and (SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!) the detonation of a tactical nuke inside a city.

 

Still, I can't get over some of the mistakes the report made about the game.

 

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This is a signature virus. Please copy and paste into your signature to help it propagate.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

what i had ment by history was how the geneva convention wasent always followed not the specifics of the game but the generalitys of wich WAR IS FOUGHT its not all nice and rainbows. people do things in war that arnt considerd legal but it is done out of a mutitude of reasions and the game (and others like it) shows, from the publishers perspective (still realistic to a point) atleast, how it was fought i DID NOT MEAN THE ACTUAL BATTLES only the METHOOD of battle!!

 We may be gone but never forgoten.

We may be gone but never forgoten.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

IHL is full of stupidity on this story. These are games that can be turned off & turned on. Turn the "GAME" off & turn it on. If the developers of games hear or read this about what IHL said about recommending what they do, they will laugh in their faces (laugh in IHL's faces about it). If games become like that people (gamers) will lose interest in the game real fast. Whoever got IHL involved in games needs to be shot. They have no business even talking about games & what should or should not happen in them. They need to be concerned w/real life happenings & as someone said on here "not fictional stories or games."

"It would be very useful if developers would incorporate more specific rules on how to conduct an operation in their games, in terms of the weapons allowed, the behaviour allowed, the military targets sought, the degree of collateral damage permitted, etc. The message of the scenes should never be that everything is allowed, or that it is up to the player to decide what is right and what is wrong. In real life, this is not the way it works."

If we do not use weapons in this game, does that mean we will use stuffed animals & rainbows & little fairies as weapons......Omg! What about a stick?! Nope they will say, can't do that it will hurt someone! AHHH! & the behavior?!?! What are they talking about?!?!? Tards! & the degree of collateral damage in games is ridiculous to say! Are yall like idiots saying that?!?!? B/c collateral damage would be in real life compared to a war game. I can start over the scene/level & there would be no collateral damage! & in real life we are given choices just like in a game. So yes, games are true to life except like another person said "mechs." Lol.....so true.

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Ok this is based my own military opinion

for 1 how they alredy counterd themselves via farcry 2, "Principle of Proportionality" (thank you chadachada321) this makes me feel REAL secure with their ability to diagnose and observe games

2. all thier games are not acceptable for the study ass they arnt exactaly whtthey mentiond to need the laws of war and RoE (call of duty is excepted but is alredy close for what they could get into one game). most games where based on HISTORY meaning this is how it realy was (MoH Airborne) or just Merc's (Farcry 2) or even future based/undercover is how it could happen or how it realy is for undercover type operations(Metal Gear Solid [atleast from my understading of it correct me if im wrond as i never played it])

We may be gone but never forgoten.

We may be gone but never forgoten.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

"most games where based on HISTORY meaning this is how it realy was (MoH Airborne)"

 

"I'm no historian, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't an elite unit of stormtroopers who wore gas masks, wielded miniguns and could take three sniper bullets to the forehead before they died. And I'm also pretty sure the Nazis didn't have a gigantic armored concrete tower that can only be described as a doom fortress." ^^

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I haven't played MoH Airborne, but the nazis -did- have some pretty imposing concrete structures. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakturm for some more infomration on them. Dunno if they're the same as in the game, but...

 

Best keep your wits about you: The gears of life are always spinning, and ignorance eventually means you'll get caught in them.

Best keep your wits about you: The gears of life are always spinning, and ignorance eventually means you'll get caught in them.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

"most games where based on HISTORY meaning this is how it realy was (MoH Airborne)"

This makes me facepalm so hard. That's not history as it was, it's history as told by the winners, through an american companies perspective.

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

History is always written by the winner, DS. I still think it is kind of weird that MoH: Airborne sold very well in Japan. This is pretty rare for a Western FPS in the first place, but the fact that it basically meant that Japanese gamers were taking the part of a soldier going around killing their ancestors is kind of morbid.

Then again, I always prefer to play the axis in most games that have the 'Allies vs. Axis' theme going on, so I suppose I am just as morbid.

"

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

So the Japanese are descended from the Nazis now? Christ your dumb.

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

History is written FIRST by the winner.  Then the loser usually gets his due.  For example "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" is now considered the definitive work on the American Indian Wars, whereas every book written as propaganda for the winners of the Indian Wars has been discredited and forgotten.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

  This is true... unlike long ago, the ability to hide facts and what truly happened is growing weaker. You can find a heavy wealth of information on anything if you dig hard enough. The victors might tell it how they want to, but researchers will be able to probe the past and dig up the truth

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Did anyone care about the Gineva Conventions or whatever the United Nations said before and during the Iraq War back earlier this decade?

It seems everyone might have forgotten that people don't give a shit about Humantarian groups.

All I have to say is, Grow some Balls and try to change the REAL WORLD instead of bullying the Gamers,

"Hey teacher/politician/family group, leave us gamers alone, because all in all you are just another brick in the wall"

 

Somehow that is my new theme tune.

 

TBoneTony

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

...They DO have IHL in games. Look at MW2. You CAN fire your gun prior to being fired upon while you're manning the turret on the humvee in the first (2nd?) level, but once the vehicle starts moving you're specifically told only to fire on people that are firing on you, otherwise you'll have to restart the level. Several points in the game are very much like that. Other games (the ones that have civilians) are just like that: Shoot a civilian, and there are negative consequences. In a true war scenario, it doesn't matter where the action is, if someone is shooting you, you shoot back. If they're shooting from a church, it doesn't matter if you hit the church, only if you shoot a civilian. Almost all games feature some way to punish people for attacking innocent people, or otherwise violating "IHL."

Will read the whole article and make specific arguments in a moment.

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

*Sigh* As I suspected, I found many problems with this article. I'll only talk about games that I've actually played to avoid problems and whatnot.

First: In Call of Duty 4, they mistakenly called the AC-130 mission a "helicopter" mission. Next, they imply that, when Al-Asad is taking over the country, and they kill some civilians, that that action is somehow supported by the player or the country/world. What I mean by that is that the article implies that the army taking over the country is somehow the "good" guys/army, when they're the main guys that you're fighting throughout the entire game. The article says that it "isn't recommended" that such a scene is included, when in my opinion its inclusion is absolutely essential to show how immoral the incoming army is.

Next, the Call of Duty 5 (and the Hell's Highway) review implies that the actions included are "violations," when they aren't any different than what ACTUALLY happened. Everything that is included is shown to a realistic extent. Just because pillaging a village is against IHL/IHRL NOW doesn't mean that a Viking game based a thousand years ago should not have pillaging/rape/murder. Instead of implying that the actions shouldn't be included, it should instead have the actions be a foil to show how immoral/inhumane the actions are by making them as realistic as possible!

For Far Cry 2, I'll just quote the whole thing and pick it apart piece-by-piece.

"The scenes portray extensive shooting in civilian areas and the shooting of civilian objects,
including shooting at a church. All these acts go unpunished in the game. Even if we
assume the attacks are not directed against these objects, the excessive destruction of civilian
objects amounts to a violation of the principle of proportionality. IHL allows for some
collateral damage to civilians and civilian objects in carrying out hostilities, however, any
expected damage must be proportional to the direct and concrete military advantage
anticipated.
Furthermore, in this game, the player is also allowed to shoot a person who is surrendering.
This amounts to a violation of the prohibition of attacking those who have laid down their
arms."

"Principle of Proportionality." As stated earlier in THEIR OWN ARTICLE, mercenaries don't count as "combatants" in the same way as combatants do, and IHL doesn't apply in the same way. The player character is a mercenary. Next, as the line between "military" and "civlian" is so entirely blurred that the entire map is basically civlian and military at the same time, the concept of having "principle of proportionality" or anything like it is laughable at best.

For the Medal of Honor: Airbourne part, I'd have to play the mission again to know exactly what's going on if I were to make a real opinion about it. Been awhile since I've played it.

That about does it for big problems that I saw. Bleh.

On a side note: Unless there's a draft, ALL soldiers are functionally by definition mercenaries, as they are paid for their service. There is no real difference between Blackwater and the US military, from a soldier's perspective. Both are paid, both are working for a specific organization, both can be ordered to do X. The US contracting Blackwater for a military action is no different than contracting their own soldiers to do said action, I don't get why the IHL or international law would be so negative towards it.

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Except the US government is less accountable for Blackwaters actions than it is for their own armies.

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

This just reminds me of that Onion video about MW2. Can't remember the exact quote but "gun that weighs 40kg that you can't ever put down and can only fire when explicitely ordered..."

Honeslty, I don't think that putting this stuff in videogames will help their cause. I think international law is just great. But players constrained by it, who aren't experiencing any benefit of 'that means they can't do it to us' because they don't *care* about their character/are 'fighting' people who don't follow it - I think it'll probably *lower* support for due restraint.


Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I think it would be interesting to include IHL as a parameter in military themed games. Just because a game has mecha in it doesn't mean the Geneva Convention is abolished. It would add an interesting dimension of choice to a game if you can choose to comply with the law or go and do "whatever it takes".

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

It really doesn’t make sense to count games where you’re not a legitimate combatant as there really isn’t any expectation of you following the rule of international law when you’re breaking it by default.   

-It’s all fun and good till the zombies get you.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Also what’s the point in mentioning violations by the enemy and things the player can do but isn’t ordered or directly encouraged to (destruction of property).

-It’s all fun and good till the zombies get you.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Ok a couple things:

1) yeah that is how things are in real life.

2) IT"S NOT ****ING REAL!!!

They need to deal with human rights in reality before they concern themselves with fictional violence.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Hey, concentrate on important issues in 'REAL LIFE WAR' and NOT on fictional events in the digital world.

There have been allot of atricities in war from the 1st world war to the recent Iraq and current wars in Afganastan.

To say that Videogame Developers can't delve into those very same topics is like trying to say that these events did not happen in real life at all.

I know I was taught about war when I was in school for a reason, now these people are trying to come up with ideas to make us believe that these things did not happen.

 

TBoneTony

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Epic f***ing fail

 

 

Never underestimate the power of idiots in large amounts.

Never underestimate the power of idiots in large amounts.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Have they even checked books or movies for this kind of thing? Of course not.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

They should check the bible, there's plenty of really naaaaaasty stuff in there.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

When are we going to require that kids playing "Operation" properly scrub and sanitize themselves and the game pieces?  Don't want kids learning mal-practice habits!

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

There was more bullshit in that PDF than my brains can handle.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Usually I tend not to agree with such one-liners, but in this case, you're right.  For example, they completely misrepresent a scene in CoD4, assuming that the people shooting civilians are on the player's side - they argue that the game is at fault for letting the player character's henchmen kill civilians.  They obviously missed the bit where the player character (whom they mis-identify as Al-Asad)is also a victim of the same guys who are having the civilians shot.  These violations are committed by the 'bad guys' - bad guys tend not to follow the Geneva Conventions.  If they did, 9/11/2001 would have been just another day at the office for 3,000+ Twin Towers workers.

They do get the bit about the killing of the guy in the chair right - but they mis-identify the Special Air Service, calling it the 'Special Air Forces'.  They also assume that a game should only allow player characters to be ethical - this has never been a valid or even useful method of presenting drama.  Many of the best characters in fiction are morally corrupt, and often we're encouraged to identify with such flawed characters - Richard III, MacBeth and Michael Corleone all spring to mind.

If studies like this want to be taken seriously, they need to get their facts straight and most importantly they need to recognise that games are entertainment and can present good or bad characters for the player to control.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Reading through the whole PDF, it seems like many of the games do comply with the rule of law, or at the very least, acknowledge it. We, as gamers, should promote this in our war shooters, since the objective is to simulate war.

The study itself is an interesting thought experiment and helps push our subculture into the mainstream. It doesn't take the position that violence in games promotes violence in real life. It doesn't say that war games shouldn't be created because kids might see them. All it says is that there are rules to war.

And GoodRobot, while I agree with your stance that movies get more leway than video games in terms of morally questionable content, this study would easily apply to war movies. Your examples of Silence of the Lambs and Die Hard wouldn't fit in this context, since the study isn't directed at Horror or Action genres, only War. I could easily point to the final scene in Saving Private Ryan when the translator shoots the German soldier that he spared earlier in the movie as a violation, in terms of a study like this, and I'm sure the authors would. (This is only me trying to stand in their shoes, not judging).

All in all, its an interesting read.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Exactly, there is often a need to add content that appears in violation of the Geneva Convention, especially in War games, and in the case of movies, those acts are performed by actors. This study whilst, as you say, being quite an interesting thought experiment, is flawed in that it assumes depiction equals act.

That said 'Free to act any role' is not the same as 'free to act any role without in-game consequence', which is possibly what this is more aimed at, but then, in many cases, it is more often oversight or lack of time that creates these situations, each reaction from the engine needs to be written into the code, and if, for example, you have Geomodding, where all walls etc can be destroyed, the game would need to start choosing which building damaged promotes which reaction, all of this pushes up the processing requirements of the game and leaves less cycles for other, more plot-centric behaviour.

I think this may be down to misconception, in many cases, it's not so much a matter of the developer leaving things in the game, as developers not having the various resources to fully adapt to the players' actions in the game environment, I think incidences such as the ones described above will reduce as computing power increases and developers can add more and more depth to the games they produce.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Full Disclosure: I think blowing stuff up in video games is awesome.

I was thinking of it more from a "Telling Stories" angle. I often play games where it is obvious that the huge potential of the medium to tell an intersting story is put in the back seat. Instead the developer focuses on Blowing Stuff Up. (Like Peacekeepers VS Transformers 2). In most genres, this would slide more easily than the War genre, at least, from this gamer's perspective. War/Police games demand a narrower interpretation of reality, and I've seen many that do (e.g. the SWAT series). Otherwise, it just seems like sloppy story telling.

I do see your point about processing power though. The marketplace is demanding more Open World Environments, and I'm not sure how to reconcile that need and the need for consequences to actions. In linear and scripted games, its pretty easy. I'll leave that up to creative developers.

BTW, did anybody else get a flashback to the movie Toys when reading this? Specfically, when the General is playing the helicopter arcade game and is mad because he loses points for blowing up UN trucks.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I could see applying this type of things to games that are trying to portray an at least pseudo-realistic military operation.  I haven't actually played any of these games, so I don't know if any of them qualify for that.

I know Metal Gear Solid 4 is Hollywood military, and covert shadow government stuff at that.

In the end, I'm reminded of Hot Fuzz, where after seeing Bad Boys 2, Officer Angel makes the comment that anyone police officer who actually did all that stuff would incur "a considerable amount of paperwork."

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I thought it was when they were watching Point Break, and when Keanu 
Reeves let Patrick Swaze go and shot his gun up in the air instead of shooting Patrick.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Nah, that's the bit that Danny imitates when his dad does a runner at the end of the film. They watched Bad Boys 2 first, and that's when Angel made that comment. (Sorry, geek moment is over now :-P )

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

There's a reason computer-controlled characters in Video Games are known as 'actors' in the design stage, it's because that is exactly what they are, they even follow a script.

Actors are not expected to follow the Geneva convention, it'd be kind of hard to depict the bad guys as 'bad' if they treated prisoners fairly, gave them a trial etc, and even the good guys to morally questionable things to 'get the job done'.

An FPS Video game is not a 'simulation of life' that you are living out, it's an action movie with you as the star, just because Alan Rickman played someone who killed several people in 5th Element, it does not follow that he is a potential killer, just because Faran Tahir pretended to be a Terrorist in Iron Man, it does not follow that he wants to kidnap scientists and force them to work for 'evil' purposes.

I find that most people don't really care whether they are 'good' or 'bad' in a game, as long as the game itself is enjoyable, well written and presented, and engaging, I would not be surprised if most actors feel the same about the movies they are in.

Lots of people would love to star in their own movie, but many cannot act, many cannot afford to try to 'make it' in Hollywood or have other commitments. Computer games allow people to immerse themselves to play-act in much the same way as actors do, as an example, when Silence of the Lambs was being recorded, Anthony Hopkins would often stay in character all day, since it was difficult to phsyche himself up for the role repeatedly, and yet, not once, did he eat anyone, gamers are the same in a way, just because they've done something in a game, it does not follow that there is a risk of them doing it in real life.

Finally, computer game manufacturers already 'limit' what they produce, to a level noticeably lower than their silver-screen counterparts.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Not to be nit picky... But Alan Rickman wasn't in the 5th Element. Perhaps you were thinking of Gary Oldman. Or of the original "Die Hard" movie.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Yup, my mistake, don't know why I thought Rickman....

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

... I hope these people fail and fail hard. I don't want to have to restart an entire save file because a bullet hit a church.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

I agree w/you.

 

 

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

"In real life, this is not the way it works."

actually it does...

 

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

The reason why they say it doesn't work in real life is b/c they don't want to believe that it does. Hypocrites!

 

 

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Here's the problem: they seem to expect games about conflict to obey rules that were put into place in an effort to prevent violations that COMMONLY OCCUR during conflicts.  The basic error these folks are making is that they demand the games be teaching tools when in fact a war game is an entertainment - it's not there to promote international war conventions.  Such games exist to show what war can be like, not what it should be like.  This same study could be used to criticise escapist movies like Die Hard and the result would be similar, but also similarly useless.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

THIS

Especially in regard to Far Cry 2, I loved that it showed a very unglamorized portrayal of war. It had a disturbingly realistic story about 2 factions stinking to any low to gain control of a diamond-rich African country.

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

Wow, I facepalm´d so hard that my head aches. This is stupid as hell. Stupid.

They will look up and shout "Give ROFLCOPTERS to us"... and I´ll whisper "NO". The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com

Re: Fighting Fair: International Humanitarian Law As ...

So no kicking prisoners of war in the balls? Spoilsports.

Also "in real life that's ot the way it works" is fair enough. So why include Metal Gear Solid 4 there, last time I checked real life didn't have mechs.

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
 
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MaskedPixelanteNumber 2: If Humongous Entertainment wanted their stuff on Steam, why didn't they talk to their parent company, which does have a number of games published on Steam?04/17/2014 - 8:45pm
MaskedPixelanteNumber 1: When Night Dive spent the better part of a year teasing the return of true classics, having their big content dump be edutainment is kind of a kick in the stomach.04/17/2014 - 8:44pm
Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.giantbomb.com/articles/jeff-gerstmann-heads-to-new-york-takes-questions/1100-4900/ He talks about the future games press and the games industry. It is worth your time even though it is a bit long, and stay for the QA. There are some good QA04/17/2014 - 5:28pm
IanCErm so they shouldn't sell edutainment at all? Why?04/17/2014 - 4:42pm
MaskedPixelanteNot that linkable, go onto Steam and there's stuff like Pajama Sam on the front-page, courtesy of Night Dive.04/17/2014 - 4:13pm
Andrew EisenOkay, again, please, please, PLEASE get in a habit of linking to whatever you're talking about.04/17/2014 - 4:05pm
MaskedPixelanteAnother round of Night Dive teasing and promising turns out to be stupid edutainment games. Thanks for wasting all our time, guys. See you never.04/17/2014 - 3:44pm
Matthew WilsonAgain the consequences were not only foreseeable, but very likely. anyone who understood supply demand curvs knew that was going to happen. SF has been a econ/trade hub for the last hundred years.04/17/2014 - 2:45pm
Andrew EisenMixedPixelante - Would you like to expand on that?04/17/2014 - 2:43pm
MaskedPixelanteWell, I am officially done with Night Dive Studios. Unless they can bring something worthwhile back, I'm never buying another game from them.04/17/2014 - 2:29pm
PHX Corphttp://www.msnbc.com/ronan-farrow/watch/video-games-continue-to-break-the-mold-229561923638 Ronan Farrow Daily on Video games breaking the mold04/17/2014 - 2:13pm
NeenekoAh yes, because by building something nice they were just asking for people to come push them out. Consequences are protested all the time when other people are implementing them.04/17/2014 - 2:06pm
Matthew Wilsonok than they should not protest when the consequences of that choice occur.04/17/2014 - 1:06pm
NeenekoIf people want tall buildings, plenty of other cities with them. Part of freedom and markets is communities deciding what they do and do not want built in their collective space.04/17/2014 - 12:55pm
Sora-ChanI realize that they have ways getting around it, but one reason might be due to earthquakes.04/17/2014 - 4:42am
Matthew WilsonSF is a tech/ economic/ trade center it should be mostly tail building. this whole problem is because of the lack of tail buildings. How would having tail apartment buildings destroy SF? having tail buildings has not runed other cities around the US/world04/16/2014 - 10:51pm
Matthew WilsonAgain the issue is you can not build upwards anywhere in SF at the moment, and no you would not. You would bring prices to where they should have been before the market distortion. those prices are not economic or socially healthy.04/16/2014 - 10:46pm
ZippyDSMleeYou still wind up pushing people out of the non high rise aeras but tis least damage you can do all things considered.04/16/2014 - 10:26pm
ZippyDSMleeANd by mindlessly building upward you make it like every place else hurting property prices,ect,ect. You'll have to slowly segment the region into aeras where you will never build upward then alow some aeras to build upward.04/16/2014 - 10:25pm
 

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