U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also Weigh In

May 20, 2010 -

United States Intellectual Property Enforcement Czar Coordinator Victoria Espinel authored a blog on the White House website to outline some of the public feedback she has received in regards to assembling an IP enforcement strategy.

Espinel, the first to serve in the newly created position, indicated that she discussed the matter with parties from all walks of life:

I sat down with book publishers, movie studios, music companies, and videogame companies, all of whom are faced with widespread problems resulting from internet piracy.  I heard concerns from many other sectors as well: our airplane industry, small manufacturers, automobile industry, steelworkers, textile manufacturers, and biotech, software, and telecommunication companies.

I also sat down with those who want strong defenses and exceptions to intellectual property liability, including academics across the country, or consumer rights organizations.  I met with Internet companies that organize information and help our citizens find out what they want to know about the world today and connect people around the globe, and Internet auction sites that allow consumers to buy what they want at the price they want, all of which are affected by our enforcement efforts.

Espinel also indicated that the public comment process resulted in some “excellent recommendations” on improving the enforcement of intellectual property, “with some of the best ideas coming from the smallest companies. “

The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) sent in its opinion (PDF), in which it labeled online piracy as a “leading concern of our industry,” and urged granting the U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CBP) more power to inspect and seize “circumvention devices” (products that exist to disable or work around protections).

The ESA also vowed to continue to help CBP as much as possible and asked for the ability to donate “hardware, software, equipment and other technologies and support services in order to assist it to identify suspect devices.”

Meanwhile, another public comment on U.S. IP enforcement, sent in by none other than Gordon Freeman (PDF), stated that, “The copyright laws in this country are already outrageous and I will not support any law that wishes to add additional enforcement, or expansion of copyright laws until the current system is fixed.”

Freeman added:

I feel that the government should update its objectives and start looking for ways to work with businesses to adopt a better model that includes the free sharing of ideas (which is what this country is founded on). If that is not possible, then I request that you look for forms of enforcement that do not go against the consumer, and the rights of consumers, such as, but not only, the ability to backup media that you already own.


Comments

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

EZK

Some of what you say is true EZK I am a bit childish and naive but I feel copyright as it is now is broken and long from its intended purpose, the world today has grown beyond what it is trying to accomplish hell what it can even functionally seek to accomplish. To say that its wrong is to ignore the overreaching problem.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"but I feel copyright as it is now is broken and long from its intended purpose, the world today has grown beyond what it is trying to accomplish hell what it can even functionally seek to accomplish."

Sure it accomplishes its intended purpose--to promote the progress of science and the useful arts. It does so by giving creators property rights in their creations

www.gameslaw.net

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

It's also wrong to make it so the very problem people are trying to solve - piracy - is legally allowed, so long as nobody's making money.  Most pirates don't make money now, so all you'd do is make it so most of the piracy that is already going on is legal.  You aren't "solving" any problem whatsoever.  You're actually enticing it to become much more rampant.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Oh please the data centers around most P2P are bought and paid for by operations based off unlicensed profit(or the attempt there of) follow the money instead of whining about losses from the 1:1 ratio myth.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

The people who run P2P sites aren't the ones uploading the music.  Therefore, the P2P sites aren't technically complicit in piracy; it's those who upload the music and those downloading it that are.  These are also the ones not making any money, as per my argument.

Or do you not know how P2P works?

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

 

 Without the online bandwidth and storage to get stuff started you would never get stuff seeded.

Look at all the p2p sites what are they? Boil it down they gain profit(or at the least attempt to make some money to pay for the service) off the trade of copyrighted information. As copyright as it is now it can not deal with this loophole well but it you focus it upon it it changes the game. Places like google and a few educational sites can be made exspmt under strict rules while sites whose primary bandwidth goes to index copyrighted items for any amount of money gained regardless of situation  get buirred under the jail house.

 

This can be done by expanding fair use or enacted a consumer rights act as so sites that strictly do not make money from the trade of copyrighted items and that no part of the service may be used to generate money,ect.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

By your very argument, the R4 should be illegal.  Just like the R4, P2P sites are the tool that pirates use, not the pirates themselves, and they have a valid, legal purpose, yet you think that it's the P2P sites fault that piracy is rampant.

You do know that piracy was a problem before the internet, too, right?

Really, Zip, you should just stop.  Every time you open your mouth about your crazy-assed idea, you actually make it sound even more stupid.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

I am sorry anyone who believes you can steal a inf-spawned copy(or edit it using ones freedom of exspression and fair use rights) is the same kind of person that believes the thought police will save us from crime....its not the copy thats the crime its the making money from the copy...anything more is zero thought police bullshit!


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

It doesn't matter if you're making money off it or not.  Downloading a copy of Iron Man 2 is stealing.  Downloading a copy of Red Dead Redemption that you didn't pay for is stealing.  This has nothing to do with the policing of thought.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Its not stealing the courts do not consider it as such even the law dose not consider it as such. Think for a moment the cost on society if it was treated as stealing and or petty theft the local police would overwhelmed and the vast majority of petty crime would go unenforced because between the media industry and politics they would be forced to spend more time on it than even lesser drugs crimes. Why don;t you get over yourself and understand the world as grown beyond petty per copy copyright and you can not put the genie back in it's bottle.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing.  Period.  And yes, the law does consider it as such.  Is it feasible to convict every single software pirate out there?  No, of course not.  But that doesn't make stealing okay.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Thats an obfuscation the law dose not considers it as stealing it considers it infringement which is broken down into civil non commercial infringement that is up to the copy right holder to peruse(which they do so randomly ,inanely and poorly thus they should not be allowed to continue doing it IMO) and commercial infringement that involves making an illicit profit competing with the legal market funneling money into the black market and directly or indirectly steal money from the copyright holder by removing money from from the process without a license. One of these is not crime society needs to be dealing with the other society needs to treat as illicit drug sale AND tax evasion....


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

I can't make it any simpler than this:

-Stealing is wrong.

-Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

and therein lies your problem; you're oversimplifying the problem.  to use a math allusion, your trying to take a long and complex equasion and turn it into a simple addition, or so it appears to me at least.  copyright law, et al, is a complex issue and must be addressed as such and not doing so is, in my opinion, ignoring the variables involved.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

I'm not discussing copyright law (a very complex issue to be sure).  All I'm saying is it's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you.  It really is that simple.

If I'm misunderstanding Zippy's responses (which, the way he chooses to write, wouldn't be surprising) and he's discussing, for example, his view that an aspect or aspects of copyright law is unfair, then yeah, my replies leave much to be desired.  However, what I glean from his posts is that stealing (in the form of file sharing) is legal and okay as long as you're not profiting.  And there's something in there about policing thought.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

*** Making a copy is NOT stealing. For theft to occur someone must be DEPRIVED of property. When you make a copy NO ONE IS DEPRIVED OF THEIR PHYSICAL PROPERTY.

At most you can argue that an infringer "stole" a "sale". The only thing the rights holder is deprived of when I make a digital copy is the $20 they would have made had I bought it form them.

***

AE: None of that is necessary.  Keep it civil, please.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"Making a copy is NOT stealing."

Once again, nowhere in the post you've replied to did I say that.  However, you're right.  Making a copy is not stealing as long as you're making an archival copy of something you own.

"At most you can argue that an infringer "stole" a "sale". The only thing the rights holder is deprived of when I make a digital copy is the $20 they would have made had I bought it form them."

There are other ways you could argue it but the above is good enough for me from a moral standpoint.

-Someone's selling something.

-You procured it without paying for it. 

Use whatever word you feel is best defined by the above.  I think "theft" and "stealing" work just fine.  It doesn't matter to me (again, from a moral standpoint) if the "something" in question is a physical object or not.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

the jist that i get from zippy's posts is that copyright infringement is not stealing due to the fact that the original property is not being removed at all, simply duplicated (as someone else had pointed out elsewhere).  if anything at all, i think it would be more akin to counterfeiting (also illegal obviously, but not theft).


Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Pretty crap argument if true.  Under that criteria, you could argue plagiarism or sneaking into a movie is not theft.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

AE

Blame the law not me, you can't make stealing a fake 100 dollar bill a crime, you can't make the distribution of fakes as fakes a crime either you can make a crime out of trying to pass off the fake as real money. IE a copy is no the crime but the intent to make money off it, at least that is how it should work.Becuse anything else is impractical.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"you can't make stealing a fake 100 dollar bill a crime"

That already is a crime.  If the 100 dollar bill doesn't belong to you, you can't take it.  It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

"you can't make the distribution of fakes as fakes a crime either"

What?  If by "distribution of fakes as fakes" you mean distributing copies you've made of someone else's copyrighted work (like a video game), it's already illegal.  It doesn't matter if you profit from it or not.  Now, if that's not the way you think it should be, fine.  I simply disagree with you.

"Becuse anything else is impractical"

Putting aside the fact that you don't consider freely distributing others' copyrighted work theft (or wrong in any way, shape, or form), difficulties in enforcement is not a justification for wrongdoing.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

If I gave out fake $100 bills without telling people they're fake, I'm breaking the law, even though I make no profit.  Therefore, your shitty analogy is not only wrong, but it proves you haven't thought about your argument at all.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Okay, now I'm CONVINCED you're just actively trying to bait people into an "infringement isn't theft" argument.

Well, not an argument, exactly.  An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.  It's not just contradiction.

Pity.  This subject really is ripe for discussion; it's too bad you've responded to every attempt at nuanced discourse by repeating "STEALING IS WRONG!" over and over again.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Read my original post, it should be very clear that that is not what I'm doing.  While I would certainly classify infringement (and plagiarism and sneaking into a movie) as theft, such semantic arguments don't interest me.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ...

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.

Dowling v. United States473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218

 

copyright infringement is _not_ theft.  also, when it comes to law, semantics are actually very important, it can, in more serious cases, define the difference between an entity being innocent or guilty.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

And again, you could make a similar argument that plagiarism isn't stealing but it still boils down to taking something that doesn't belong to you, in other words, theft.  But again, it's a semantic argument which I have no interest in.  Yes, semantics in law are very important but as I've said over and over again, I wasn't talking about copyright law, I was talking about taking stuff that doesn't belong to you (specifically in the form of file sharing).

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

...did you just go from "semantic arguments don't interest me" to " I wasn't talking about copyright law, I was talking about taking stuff that doesn't belong to you (specifically in the form of file sharing)" literally from one sentence to the next?

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

You have to ask?  It's written right there in the post you replied to.  You even quoted it.  Incorrectly, I might add.  Here's what I actually said:

"["Plagiarism isn't stealing" is] a semantic argument which I have no interest in."

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

so you want to talk about copyright infringement at the exclusion of copyright law?  i've always thought of the two as intrinsically mutual.  in that case am i to assume that your speaking from a moral standpoint (as compared to a legal one that i had previously assumed)?  if that's the case, then that brings in a whole different set of circumstances to take into consideration.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"i've always thought of [copyright infringement and copyright law] as intrinsically mutual."

As do I, but my original post was simply speaking on one of the most basic of morals: it's wrong to take stuff that doesn't belong to you.  That's it.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

who saidit was?


Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Waitwaitwait.  Did you just say you're not discussing copyright law, you're just saying that "stealing" (by which you mean illegally copying files) is wrong?  Are you seriously making the claim that illegally copying files is not covered by copyright law?

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"Did you just say you're not discussing copyright law, you're just saying that "stealing" (by which you mean illegally copying files) is wrong?"

Yes.

"Are you seriously making the claim that illegally copying files is not covered by copyright law?"

No, as should be clear from this exchange:

"Its not stealing the courts do not consider it as such even the law dose not consider it as such." -Zippy

"Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing.  Period.  And yes, the law does consider it as such." -AE

 

Andrew Eisen

 

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"Are you seriously making the claim that illegally copying files is not covered by copyright law?"

"No"

THEN YOU WERE DISCUSSING COPYRIGHT LAW.

Unless "discussing" is the word you're disputing.  In which case, touche, as it really isn't much of a discussion.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Wow.  I didn't know I could discuss a topic simply by not making a particular claim.  I'm awesome!

All joking aside, yes, I corrected Zippy's assertion that stealing digital media is not illegal (at least, I think that's what he was asserting).  If you want to make the semantic argument that I was therefore discussing copyright law, fine.

 

Andrew Eisen

P.S. - I bet the guy in the cube next to mine that you'd come back with a post such as this.  Unfortunately for my wallet, he wouldn't take that bet.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Congratulations, you predicted that if you said something contradictory I would point out it was contradictory.

Did the guy whose every post consists of "Stealing is wrong.  Period.  It's that simple." just call ME predictable?


Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

I've said nothing contradictory.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

So, the law says they can pursue it themselves, and because they don't do it the way you'd like it, they shouldn't do it at all?

I suppose if someone took your stuff, you'd just be okay with that?

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

 

In this case they wouldn't be taking his stuff, they would be making an exact copy of it and taking that.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

And if he didn't say it was okay, it's still illegal, so your point is what?

If Zip wrote music and recorded it, music he wants to sell, and I copied it and distributed it without his permission to everyone in the world, who would he sell it to?  Nobody would buy it, because they already have it.

According to Zip, he thinks the above should be perfectly legal.  I'm sure he feels that way so long as he isn't the victim.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Agreed, wholeheartedly.  Too often do people intentionally try to hide what the laws people bitch about are supposed to prevent.  Namely, people stealing other people's stuff.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

"Stealing" versus "infringing" baiting aside, I'm breaking the law simply by having DVD-player software on my Linux computer.

Obviously, this is totally worth it as this legal protection has done such a great job of preventing people from illegally copying DVD's.

Re: U.S. IP Chief Offers Update, ESA & Gordon Freeman Also ...

Heres the best quote I have found on the DMCA and fair use

 

The DMCA bans circumvention of any "effective" copy protection system. "Effective" has been defined as essentially anything that the average user cannot circumvent on their own, lacking any external help designed for that purpose. Thus by definition anything requiring "fair use technology" is covered by this ban. Because this technology is also made illegal by the DMCA, fair use of copy-protected works is plainly and unambiguously banned by the DMCA and anything else based on its definition of "effective".


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

 
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