The George Hotz Court Order

April 12, 2011 -

As much as George Hotz says that the settlement agreement is confidential, after reading them one can understand why he would want them to remain buried under the veil of confidentiality. According to those court documents, which have now been leaked to multiple hacking sites, and posted on Videogame247, Hotz was the losing party in the agreement.

According to those court documents, Hotz has been put under a "permanent injunction" that forbids him from "trafficking in any technology" that "circumvents any of the TPM’s in any Sony product," including any kind of decryption code or technology. He is also banned from assisting anyone else in such activities, or distributing and knowledge or confidential information related to Sony's products.

His hands are tied and his voice is lost when it comes to any Sony products. Further if he does engage in any activity that he is barred from in the court order, he can be fined $10,000 for each incident, up to a cap of $250,000. Should he violate the order, he also agrees that any further court proceedings will take place in California. In other words he agrees that the jurisdiction is officially California - apoint his lawyers argued against during most of his legal battle with Sony.

If there is one thing Hotz won it was that Sony did not ask that he pay any damages or legal fees. Still, Hotz's legal fees were not for free so he ate those, save whatever money he raised from donations and groups such as the EFF.

You can check out the entire document here. Thanks Andrew Eisen for the tip.


Comments

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

 

I cannot understand how many idiots here still live in this little "Peter-Pan" world where you believe that you have the right do break a legal agreement because you paid for the product.

Yes, you did pay for it, but it was sold to you under the implied understanding that you agree with the terms that the owner of that technology, in this case Sony, has put as conditions for you to be able to legally use it.

If people on Hotz's side were really all about home brew, or simply bitching about linux, they would invest the time and energy into the appropriate equipment for the task. A computer is more affordable than a PS3 for playing with linux. And you don't use a PS3 to develop software for it.

And this isn't like tuning a car for off road use. This is like tuning a car for off road use, using means that would allow you to get free parts, free tires, free gas, free insurance, free registration and so on. And showing everyone else how to do it.

In my opinion, he got off too easy.

 

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"Yes, you did pay for it, but it was sold to you under the implied understanding that you agree with the terms that the owner of that technology, in this case Sony, has put as conditions for you to be able to legally use it."

Which they then changed.

"If people on Hotz's side were really all about home brew, or simply bitching about linux, they would invest the time and energy into the appropriate equipment for the task. A computer is more affordable than a PS3 for playing with linux. And you don't use a PS3 to develop software for it."

The PS3 is the cheapest Cell-based computer on the market.  The Cell processor is an excellent tool for cluster computing, and Linux on PS3 has practical applications for scientific research.  Wikipedia has more info on the subject, which you probably don't want to read because it doesn't support the "people only use this for piracy" argument that you and all the other Sony defenders in the thread are completely relying on.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

I don't see the need for Linux in any case. Amiga ftw.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Nothing like being sued into the ground by a car maker for tweaking a vehicle for off road sports. *rolls eyes*


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

More like tweaking a vehicle for off-road use, with the target demographic being Mexican drug runners.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Ya ya ya who needs rights or due process since you are a criminal since you dare own something that might can be misused we are going to lynch you anyway.

 

Sorry but allowing the powers that be to abuse the court system via bad law is never a good thing, you can not equate the possibility of misuse to blatant misuse its the same as arresting people for driving an off road vehicle legally off road or searching a premise without a warrant. Sorry your logic fails, you want to be pro IP focus on the bigger picture the distributors of content, focus law on the areas of illicit distribution not on ownership of media or hardware as that is ultimately a lost cause do the nature of the US IE tends to side with consumer and public rights(tho they managed to get the DMCA passed with un constitutional crap in it).



I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

No, my logic doesn't fail.  If you're going to make a poor comparison, I'm going to make it a little closer to reality.  George Hotz marketed his hacks to hackers of all kinds - homebrewers, sure, who at least some are decent people, but also to gamebreakers and pirates.  Therefore, my comparison is apt - someone who makes off-road vehicles for regular off-roaders, along with customers he knows to be Mexican drug runners.

I'm sorry you can't see why illegal activity is illegal.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order


*raises uni-brow*
You do realize you are using the same logic as the anti fictional sex/violence sect use?
Just because it may can be seen as or through limited use "bad"dose not mean it is 100% bad or worthless.
You just can not get past the point that the consumer has any rights at all.

Also Hotz did not traffic in firmware or other copyrighted information, what he "trafficked" in was information about the PS3 and a patch for its firmware. Hotz is not a "pirate" by any sane definition and hacking the PS3 like he did is not illegal, its called reverse engineering of which we still have a right to do i this country, its true trading in the tool/patch  at this time may be illegal but so is making a back up of any retail disc media as bypassing the protection is the same as trafficking in circumvention tools.

 This is a lose lose situation where the powers that be are testing the waters to see if the people will roll over for overreaching unconstitutional  rules and laws.

You are laying the blame on everyone but the people responsible those involved with copy righted file storage and indexing are the ones at the helm of not only making money without a license but make it so easy to gain copies of retail media. Take them out via sane and reasonable laws and you reduce the already insignificant small damage wise file sharing industry even more.

The more you insist that the public has no rights and that causation dose not need correlation your argument is seen as not only silly but will fall on deaf ears.


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Fact: Hotz violated the DMCA. Nobody's arguing that. I'll even buy your "Reverse Engineering" crap. Hotz got sued because the information he distributed contained copyrighted material belonging to Sony.

Another fact: Consumers have plenty of rights. They just don't have all the rights you seem to think they do.

Yet another fact: The same thing applies to copyright holders. They have the right to defend their intellectual property if they feel it is being violated.

By your logic, people should have the right to mod their systems for piracy purposes. AND have the right to show others how to do it.

Not that I'm saying that's what your point is. That's just how it's coming across to me.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"By your logic, people should have the right to mod their systems for piracy purposes. AND have the right to show others how to do it."

Interesting that you use the "for piracy purposes" qualifier in there -- are you acknowledging that intent is important and people should indeed be allowed to mod their systems if it's NOT for piracy purposes?

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

I'm not using it as a qualifier, I'm using it to describe the way Zippy's comment is coming off. By his logic, piracy should be perfectly legal, as well as teaching others how to commit piracy.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with modding a system for homebrew purposes. The problem here is that basically the people who were using Other OS for piracy screwed over the people that are using it for legitimate means. I believe that if people weren't using Other OS for piracy, then Sony never would have removed it.

It's true I can't prove that people were only using it for piracy. But on the other hand, you can't prove that they weren't using it for piracy, either.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"I'm not using it as a qualifier"

(Facepalm) Of course you were, because that's what it IS.  "For piracy purposes" is an adverbial phrase.

"It's true I can't prove that people were only using it for piracy."

I've already cited evidence that people were using Linux for purposes OTHER than piracy.  I linked an article on grid computing below.  You responded to it.  It's firmly established that people were NOT "only using it for piracy".

"But on the other hand, you can't prove that they weren't using it for piracy, either."

Covered above: you're asking me to prove a negative, which is a logical fallacy.

You're making this conversation rather difficult, because not only do you not seem to understand the basic facts of the case, you don't even seem to understand basic grammar or logic.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Marketed?  He gave the method away for free.  He wasn't selling cars, he was giving away information.

There's a raft of precedent saying that the First Amendment protects speech that TELLS people how to break the law -- take a look at the Anarchist's Cookbook, for example.

The DMCA's anti-circumvention clause carves out an exception to the First Amendment, banning speech that tells people how to circumvent copy protection mechanisms -- regardless of whether the circumvention itself is used to violate copyright.

While it may appear, at face value, that Hotz's violation of the DMCA was open-and-shut, the anti-circumvention clause is ambiguous, and its legal enforcement has been mixed.  Famously, in the Elcomsoft case, programmer Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested by the FBI for developing software that circumvented Adobe's eBook copy protection, but ultimately Elcomsoft was acquitted of wrongdoing, precisely BECAUSE the software was not intended for piracy even if it could be used for that purpose.

And Hotz himself has had direct experience with explicit DMCA exceptions: he's jailbroken the iPhone, which has been recognized as fair use and not subject to the anti-circumvention clause.

The question here is, why is it legal to jailbreak a phone but not a game console?  Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that a jailbroken PS3 can be used for piracy, but surely you're aware that a jailbroken iPhone can too.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

That's pure speculation and you know it. Furthermore, that is an ad hominem. You're trying to conflate a morally reprehensible actions to an act of civil disobedience to illicit moral disdain for the purpose of discrediting Hotz character. The hack does provide the opportunity to violate copyright, but that's no different than making a hunting rifle. The rifle can kill people just as it can kill a dear, but it's how the wielder uses it that is to blame, not the creator of the device. Murder is secondary to it's intended purpose just as infringement was secondary to the PS3 hack's intended purpose, which was to get OtherOS back either by coercion or force.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

ad hominem it may be, but not completely baseless. People WERE using OtherOS for piracy. Make no mistake about that. If you believe that people were only using OtherOS simply for homebrew, you're as naive as they come.

Also, comparing a gun to computer software is a logical fallacy in itself. A gun is a weapon. It's primary design is to bring harm to another living being. That's why they're heavily regulated, despite the US having a constitutional right to bear arms. If you can write a computer program that can instantly kill someone, then you can make the comparison.

I agree with you that Hotz can't be held liable for people using the hack for piracy. Just like Smith & Wesson can't be held liable for every shooting that's being done with their guns.

HOWEVER.

One thing we CAN make the comparison with is the fact that Smith & Wesson know their products are invariably going to be used to hurt or kill somebody. On that same token, Hotz HAD to know that people were going to use the hack for piracy. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, I'm just calling him an arrogant ass for not caring. That should have been his first clue that Sony was going to be all over him over it.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"People WERE using OtherOS for piracy."

Well, by your flawed logic, because bittorrent is used for piracy, all bittorrent should be shut down. Because the web is used for piracy, the entire WWW should be shut down. Because CDs and DVDs are used for piracy, all CDs and DVDs should be destroyed.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

My logic is fine. By your logic, piracy doesn't even exist. Wonderful little fantasy land in which you dwell.

And just so you know, piracy has been around since before bittorrent, the internet, and CD's and DVD's. If you continue to twist my logic to even more rediculous heights, we should just eliminate humanity, because if it weren't for humans, there would be no copyright, and there would be no piracy.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"By your logic, piracy doesn't even exist."

Uh, what logic is that, exactly?

"And just so you know, piracy has been around since before bittorrent, the internet, and CD's and DVD's."

It sure has.  In the old days, people would illegally copy manuscripts by hand.  And yet quills and parchments were not banned.

That's what you're suggesting here: OtherOS was used for piracy, so it had to go.  (Your "evidence" for this, it bears restating, is "Why else would they get rid of it?")  Your argument is that things that are used for piracy should be banned.

Craig has pointed out the fallacy here.  He hasn't twisted your logic to "rediculous [sic] heights", he's simply pointed out that if you were to apply it to other things besides console Linux, it would sound absurd.  (Well, to some.  There actually are lots of people who would rather see BitTorrent completely banned.)

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Nono, just the BLANK ones.

And any Linux distribution that includes DeCSS.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"People WERE using OtherOS for piracy. Make no mistake about that."

Evidence?

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Oh, sure, you got me there. I don't have any evidence that people were using OtherOS for piracy.

Unless, of course, you meant BESIDES the fact they removed it in the first place. What other reason would they have? To be the mean, evil corporation who punishes their customers for doing nothing?

You DO know that foil hats don't really work, right? 

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"Unless, of course, you meant BESIDES the fact they removed it in the first place. What other reason would they have?"

"They MUST have had a good reason!" is not actually evidence, dude, it's conjecture.

"To be the mean, evil corporation who punishes their customers for doing nothing?

You DO know that foil hats don't really work, right?"

You make an excellent point.  That strawman you're talking to sounds like a totally crazy conspiracy nut who just hates capitalism.

But thanks, you answered my question -- though a simple "No" would have sufficed.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Conjecture it may be, but it's certainly a lot more convincing than "Evil Sony is punishing customers for no good reason".

I can't prove that Sony took out OtherOS for any specific reason other than financial reasons, just as you can't prove Sony took it out for no reason.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"Conjecture it may be, but it's certainly a lot more convincing than "Evil Sony is punishing customers for no good reason"."

Which, again, is a strawman.  Your repeated employment of the same strawman speaks volumes about the strength of your argument: you have no facts or evidence to support your claim (and even your grasp of basic Aristotelean logic is highly questionable), so your only recourse is to put words in other people's mouths.

I'll grant Sony took it out because it was concerned about piracy.  As for whether those concerns were legitimate, well, I've not seen any evidence that they were.

Incidentally, remember that Sony explicitly stated the reason for removing the feature was "security concerns".  If you claim it was actually piracy concerns, then you acknowledge Sony lied about its motivations.

"I can't prove that Sony took out OtherOS for any specific reason other than financial reasons, just as you can't prove Sony took it out for no reason."

You've got me there -- I can't prove a negative.

Fortunately, I understand how burden of proof works.  YOU'RE the guy who has to prove YOUR case; I don't have to prove squat in this argument.  And you just admitted you can't.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

The comparison to drug running was somehow LESS fallacious?

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Yup. Because the vehicle and the jailbreak were both created without intention of harming anyone, so that's a fair comparison, yet we have vehicular homicide and piracy. Guns, however, are weapons, created with the sole intention of bringing harm to someone, whether you're robbing someone, or defending yourself. Either which way, someone's going to be hurt.

If you modify a system for the sole purpose of piracy, you're violating the DMCA. If you modify a car for the sole purpose of drug running... You're probably violating multiple federal laws, and will more than likely be sent to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

But the point is really moot, isn't it? The case is over, and Hotz is forever removed from the PS3 jailbreak, and he can't hand it off to anyone else, while all he gets is relief from any sort of damages.

I dunno about anyone else, but it seems to me that Sony made out like a bandit. Even without jurisdictional advantage.

Way to fight the power there, Hotz. I'm sure all your little hacker buddies are laughing with you, not at you.

I, for one, am laughing at you.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

"The case is over, and Hotz is forever removed from the PS3 jailbreak, and he can't hand it off to anyone else, while all he gets is relief from any sort of damages."

That's too little too late I'd say. The information is out there. Sony can't stop anyone else, their injunction on Hotz is impotent in that regard. So Hotz can't hack Sony anymore. Big deal. He's not the only one out there that knows how.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Sure, he's not the only one who knows how, but he was apparently the only one who showed it off on the internet like the arrogant ass that he is. As far as Sony's concerned, as long as you keep it to yourself, and keep it offline, you'll stay out of their sights.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Well, not to nit pick, but guns do have uses beyond shooting people.

If you live in rural areas, many people still use them for hunting for instance (and I do not mean as sport, I mean hunting as part of their livelihood and otherwise feeding their family).

Guns also have significant sports usage (in the same way archery does)..... the US has quite an active skeet/sporting clays community for instance.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

I never said they didn't have uses besides shooting people. I'm saying that the original design for guns was to bring harm to another being. They were originally designed as weapons.

And I enjoy archery very much, myself, but I also know that the bow and arrow was, again, designed to bring harm to another being.

My point was that cars made for a better comparison with software than weapons do. >_>

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Neko

I think CP/IP hardware is more like vehicles, off road specifically. As you can build ,mod and such anything for off road usage but getting it on the street or online hardware wise you have many more rules to comply to.

Tho weapons work as well  I guess you simply can not use them to threaten or harm another person without heavy scrutinization.

 

At the end of the day we need to be allowed to have rights and due process from the angle of the law to limit court cases to real and valid issues.


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

*nods* I agree that the off-road vehicles made for a better analogy.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Yes, because drug running is the only reason anyone would want a car with off road capabilities. Give me a break.

Can we get past the whole "Piracy is the only reason to circumvent copy protection" claim. It is getting rather grating.

E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

And a bullshit scapegoat excuse to justify more abusive laws.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

so basically he gave up and took the cowards way out.

nice... not.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

That is really easy to say when you are not the one being targeted by a multinational company.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Like Jedi says above, Hotz put the target on his own back when he decided to hack the PS3. He brought this on himself, and has no one to blame but himself.

Well, himself and the DMCA.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Did you REALLY expect anything else?  I mean, think about it - had he fought Sony, do you really think the outcome would have been any different?  There would be one difference - he'd have had to file bankruptcy due to his legal fees being so huge.

Face it.  He was doomed from the beginning - and by beginning, I'm talking the day he started hacking the damned machine.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Sony was already on shaky ground to begin with. They couldn't even get the case moved to California where they had a biased judge lined up. Their evidence was EULA and TOS agreements tied to IP adresses. That's not exactly concrete proof. IP's are dynamic and change hands frequently. They also can be hidden, scrambled, or outright faked. So they had little chance of linking him to and EULA and and TOS agreement. They claimed he had a PSN account, which it was found that he did not.

Sony's actions were nothing but sabre rattling and calling in the attack dog lawyers to scare defendents into settlement which they got away with apparently. All the while Sony gets to continue to deny any liability on their own part.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Well no, their evidence for setting the venue was shaky...

Their evidence for a DMCA violation was pretty solid.

People seem to be having trouble telling the two pieces apart.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

I'm not denying that it's obvious that he violated the DMCA. It's everything else that didn't have a leg to stand on.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Considering the steaming pile that is the DMCA...

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

The whole case was about the DMCA violations, which is why Sony would have won.  Everything else was just to make his life miserable in the meantime.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Honestly even without the settelment sony would have won big time in court.

http://www.magicinkgaming.com/

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Based on what? They couldn't even establish jurisdictional priority. Sony settled because they were afraid that there was a good chance that if Hotz won, it would set a precedent that would take the teeth out of the DMCA or at least get people to look at it with a severely critical eye.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

I doubt they cared all that much regarding jurisdiction other then using it to make his life difficult.  SECA could sue him anywhere in the US and would have won.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Very much agreed. There are some who would argue that Sony was trying to gain jurisdiction in California because that's where it would be easiest for them. This in itself may be true, but that doesn't mean that California is the only place they could win. The result would have been the same regardless of where the case was.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Considering how pro-Sony the settlement is - Hotz didn't get a damned thing outside of no fines - what you suggest with your post is laughable, at best.

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

That's a stretch. Sony has expensive lawyers, Hotz doesn't. He made the rational decision for someone in his position. Get the heat of with the least amount of trouble. Whether Hotz would have won or lost that suit, he was going to take a hefty hit financially, even with the donated funds. This is a far less wounding conclusion than what he faced in the courts. But thank you for jumping to conclusions that satisfy your own opinion.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: The George Hotz Court Order

Re-read your own post and tell me who's jumping to conclusions.  Your assertion insinuates that Sony settled because they were afraid of George Hotz.  If that were the case, they'd have thrown him some sort of bone.

He got nothing.  Sony got everything they wanted.

How is this suggesting anything other than the complete opposite of what you insinuate?

---

With the first link, the chain is forged.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.
 
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MaskedPixelanteSee? It's NOT a repeat of last year's fiasco.12/25/2014 - 4:22pm
PHX CorpLizard squad is responsible for The XBL/PSN shutdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSpZvsoWvig12/25/2014 - 4:17pm
IanCOh shut up bitching about Nintendo. At least they advised people to downloading updates before the big day. Sony/MS? Not a peep.12/25/2014 - 3:50pm
 

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